Scrappy Episode 4: Solar Roadways

Chris Straigis – 0:20
Our sun – 4.5 billion years old, give or take a few. It’s more than 325,000 times the weight of our home planet. It would take 1.3 million of our earths to fill it up. And it’s 1000 times brighter than a clear daytime sky. This, our ancient local star, is almost single handedly responsible for why our Earth is the way it is, even our very existence. Billions of years ago, it helped change our planet from a burning barren wasteland into the lush habitable place we call home. And now while we’re facing a global environmental upheaval, unprecedented in human history, two citizens of our unique global family hope to harness that very sun to fundamentally change the planet again.

Julie Brusaw – 1:18
I’m Julie Brusaw, and I’m one of the co-founders of Solar Roadways.

Scott Brusaw – 1:22
And I’m Scott Brusaw, the other co-founder of Solar Roadways. I was born in California, Southern California, and my family moved to a place called Buena Park when I was four. And that’s where I met Julie she was three she was our direct back-door neighbor. She tells the story better how we met…

Julie Brusaw – 1:41
Because I actually remember this, Scott does not remember this, and I was younger, but I still am the one that remembers it. We didn’t have any walls, later they built walls, but in the beginning, it was it was brand new construction. It was just all dirt. And our mothers met out in the backyard and both got…

Julie Brusaw – 2:00
We’re really shy and scared of each other. And I have a very clear memory of both of us, like behind our mother’s legs hiding and both of our mothers were trying to get us to come out and say hi to each other. And we just peeked at each other from behind our mother’s legs.

Scott Brusaw – 2:16
Her mother used to babysit me while my parents worked.

Chris Straigis – 2:20
This pair brought together simply by chance, made a connection, a bond that’s held ever since.

Julie Brusaw – 2:28
We walked to school and home from school together and and now we’re married. It’s just quite something to be married to the person who was for both of us were each other’s first girl-friend or boy-friend, girlfriend, friend, that’s a girl or a friend that the boy.

Chris Straigis – 2:48
By the early 1990s, Julie would go on to get her master’s in psychology and Scott, a Masters in electrical engineering and both would set off on their successful careers. But then in the mid 2000s, of fundamental shift and trajectory was about to take place. It was the kind of realignment that often only comes once in a lifetime, if at all. as Julie recalls, she took Scott to the movies.

Julie Brusaw – 3:16
I had always an affinity for all growing things, animals, plants, trees… I remember just walking among trees and just loving them, loving gardening, and just caring very much about the environment, always. So I had a whole different take. When we start hearing about climate change, I was immediately very, very worried and wanting to do something but our inspiration was wanting to protect the Earth.

Scott Brusaw – 3:45
Matter of fact, when talk about global warming first began, we started seeing on the evening news, I mean, we were married then, and I’m an engineer, so I kept thinking, “okay, that’s really a problem”. Why doesn’t somebody fix it? And I just got kind of tired of hearing about it every night because I’m thinking what climatologist fixes this. And then Al Gore’s movie came out, we went to see it together – An Inconvenient Truth – and then we realized what how big the problem really was. And Julie has always been an environmentalist. I was more skeptical more of a engineering type.

Julie Brusaw – 4:19
He was very willing to go see the movie, but I had to… just the environmental things. I was talking to him a lot about them when we first got married.

Scott Brusaw – 4:30
I was very skeptical at first.

Julie Brusaw – 4:31
Yeah, he was skeptical of the science just, you know, is it really is the planet really in danger and

Scott Brusaw – 4:39
You’re just naturally skeptical, you’re trained to be skeptical, of everything.

Julie Brusaw – 4:44
Now, of course, he totally believes the planet is a really in danger after studying a lot but for me, it’s more of an emotional thing and that an instant connection. And for him is the science that convinced him.

Scott Brusaw – 4:59
And she, after seen the movie, said we need to do something, you know ourselves. And we thought about putting solar panels on the roof, but we don’t really like the look of them. And so she asked, can’t you take solar panels and lay them on the driveway, and I just kind of laughed. I said, you can’t even step on those let alone drive on them. So she dropped it. But it kind of stuck in my craw and I kept thinking about it, I finally decided, if we could figure out a way to protect the solar cells, it just might work. And that’s that’s where it started from. I remember sitting on a couch, we’re talking about this and, we live in North Idaho, we get a lot of snow here, solar panels don’t work if they get snow on them.

Julie Brusaw – 5:32
So we’re sitting there there we were sitting on the couch, just brainstorming and we would just come up with ideas so fast, and it seemed like it snowballed so fast that it was such fun, because we had just realizations. S o we’re thinking okay, so snow…

Scott Brusaw – 5:50
The original idea was just solar panels, but the snow would have stopped us. So now we gotta put some kind of heating element inside the panel or prevent the snow from sticking. And then we thought, well, if we’re going to make these roads out of them you can’t have, you can’t paint lines on top of solar panels, they stopped producing. So we thought, let’s put LEDs inside to illuminate the road lines.

Julie Brusaw – 6:10
So all of sudden we’re realizing, oh my gosh, if we do this, if we make the lines and the signage out of a LEDs, we’ll be able to see perfectly again. Like right now I can’t drive at night in an unfamiliar city, I don’t see well enough. With Solar Roadways, I will be able to again. And here in North Idaho, in the wintertime, you can’t see the lines anymore. They’re covered with snow almost all the time. So everybody just guesses. It’s very dangerous.

Scott Brusaw – 6:37
So here’s the really cool part – when I put the LEDs and in order to make the LEDs work, we had to have a microprocessor. Soon as you put that microprocessor in there, each panel became a computer. And then, you know, the sky’s the limit, you can do whatever you want with it. We put sensors and we have a light sensor so it measures the ambient light. So the brighter the sun gets, the brighter the LEDs become. At nighttime, they’re really low setting. We put temperature sensors, four temperature sensors in the panel, so the microprocessor polls all four. And if any of them are lower than the threshold voltage, it kicks in the heating elements. It just basically became a computer.

Chris Straigis – 7:16
It occurred to me as I was talking to the Bruaws, and they were diving deeper into their concept that they were truly in the Goldilocks zone for this idea. This amalgam of technologies, computer, solar, LED and heat, filament, glass, wireless and IoT, not to mention manufacturing. This was the only time in history that these elements have been available in a way that could come together like this. And in just another decade or two, it may well be too late to have enough of the intended effect. In the four-and-a-half billion year journey of our Earth, an incredible idea finds just the right team at just the right time to bring it to life.

Julie Brusaw – 7:58
It was it was really clear to us and it was almost scary because we remember, we were in Washington DC, waiting to see Senator Crapo, who’s our Idaho Senator. And we both have a really clear memory of sitting there waiting to see him, and the news was just talking about various problems in the world. And then we would say, ‘we can solve that’. And they mentioned another problem and we’d say ‘we can solve that, too.’ They’d mentioned another problem, and we’d say, ‘oh, my gosh, we can solve all these problems. This is almost scary.’ From that early brainstorming time, we knew that this was going to change the world.

Chris Straigis – 8:39
But nothing, no idea or business or movement is easy and seamless. There are always challenges. The difference is in the difference makers.

Scott Brusaw – 8:52
Originally, and I used to do a lot of talks and people would asked that question, ‘what’s was the biggest hurdle,’ and I’d say ‘red tape.’ When we first got into this, roads can be owned privately by the county, by the city, by the state, by the federal government, and they all have different rules and regulations. So that was, you know, you can get around that, it’s just not easy. You have to figure out, everybody’s gonna have different requirements.

Scott Brusaw – 9:18
The bigger challenge that we’ve found along the way is manufacturing. I’ve never done manufacturing before. I’ve done a lot of design work over the years for other people.

Julie Brusaw – 9:26
But moreover, the funding for it – trying to do with a budget you know, so one of the biggest challenges we have right now is just funding. We have not wanted to take on an investor because that scares us. We hear horror stories all the time from fellow inventors who tell us they’ve taken on an investor and really regretted it, that the investors pushing them in directions they don’t want to go.

Scott Brusaw – 9:49
Then they ultimately get fired.

Julie Brusaw – 9:51
We don’t want an investor saying ‘no just you know, haven’t made in China and and who cares about the environmental processes. Just get it out there and we’ll make a lot of money.’ That’s not our motivation, that’s not who we are. So we’re working seven days a week. We need, ultimately, to be able to have manufacturing facilities all over. We’ve got our first one under contract in Ohio. We need lots, lots more.

Scott Brusaw – 10:18
In a typical business, you get it off the ground, you finally start making some money and save up maybe, you know, begin construction on a second factory. That’s going to take too long, we don’t have that kind of time.

Julie Brusaw – 10:29
The planet doesn’t have that kind of time.

Chris Straigis – 10:31
Another challenge for Solar Roadways was manufacturing logistics. For this idea to really have an impact, it was going to take a lot of panels. So just like they developed creative ways to design the environmental solution, they’ve worked out an interesting way to deal with the logistical challenges of time, geography and production.

Scott Brusaw – 10:52
We’re looking at a franchise model where we can have 50 people building factories at the same time. We would basically show them how to make them make our solar road panels and cut them loose and let them go at it. Yeah, we need to get this out fast and all over the world. We’ve had, we’re here in North Idaho, we’ve had people who want to manufacture in other countries visit us from South Korea from Australia. We’re flown to Austria, all over the world.

Julie Brusaw – 11:21
And this way, it’s better for the environment if the panels are manufactured close to where they’re going to be installed because it lowers cost and it’s just better not to ship along way. So if the panels are being manufactured in other countries, that will boost the economy in other countries. It will be helpful to the environment. Lots of people can make money manufacturing panels, we won’t make as much, but it’s better for the planet that way. We can help our country and then other countries boost their economy with solid manufacturing that is also protecting the environment.

Chris Straigis – 12:00
Another more unexpected challenge was a bit of a blindside. And one that’s a much more modern phenomenon.

Scott Brusaw – 12:07
In the beginning, we had to learn to have thick skins because in the beginning, we’ve never experienced that before people just flat out attacking us for no reason.

Julie Brusaw – 12:15
We got hit in the midst of our Indiegogo campaign, and it was quite a surprise at first. So, we asked our, our team at Indiegogo, you know, for advice and what’s going on? Are you seeing this, we’re being attacked. And they said, Oh, yes, because you were successful. At first, it was very disheartening, but then we learn to just have a thicker skin and a sense of humor about it because some of the crazy lies they make up are really quite something. What’s disheartening for us though, is here we are literally dedicating our lives to trying to save the planet, not just for ourselves in our own family, but for everyone. For those people to.

Chris Straigis – 12:58
Their crowdfunding can campaign was incredibly successful, but also a definite learning experience. Julie and Scott knew, however, that this wouldn’t be the right approach for longer term widespread success for Solar Roadways. They were going to have to think bigger and take the idea to the next level.

Scott Brusaw – 12:18
We were invited to do a talk at Booz Allen Hamilton. I’m not in Virginia. And we did that took a train all the way across the country. We didn’t have any money back then.

Julie Brusaw – 13:29
That was extremely early on, we were just in the concept phase.

Scott Brusaw – 13:33
So we did our talk. And after the talk, somebody came up out of the audience and said, I’m with the Federal Highway Administration, are you going to be in town long enough to do this presentation for my group? And we hadn’t talked to any civil engineers yet. So I told Julie, let’s just do it because they might laugh us out of building I don’t even know if this is possible. Two days later, I did a 90 minute presentation at the Turner Fairbanks research facility for the Federal Highway Administration. It was a room full of civil engineers and there’s a big whiteboard all across front of the room. And as part of my presentation I was drawing on a whiteboard, and by the end of my presentation there were four of them up there drawing with me saying, here’s how we can do this.

Julie Brusaw – 14:09
And they had calculated, talk about the numbers, they had calculated how much we lose as a nation from people sitting in traffic because of road construction.

Scott Brusaw – 14:19
They came up with, after this research, they said it was $165 billion dollars we lose every year from you and I sitting in traffic jams did a road construction. And by that they mean you’re sitting there, your engine’s running, you’re burning gasoline, but you’re not moving and you’re not getting to work where you can be productive. And the reason is, they said, based on that report, they realized that fixing potholes the way they’re currently doing it is crazy. They stopped traffic, they put asphalt and they stamp it down. It’s not even a good fix, it’s bumpy. But they found it was much more economical to just cut out a 10 foot by 10 foot square of asphalt, toss it away and drop in a pre cast concrete slab in there. It’s a horrible f It’s still bumpy, but it gets traffic moving faster. And that’s what they really loved about Solar Roadways, they said ‘you got a modular system here.’ So a panel goes out, you know it only weighs 70 pounds, I can throw in the back of my Subaru drive out there, swap out the panel reprogram it and be gone in five minutes. And that particular fix the road, is as good as a day was first laid.

Scott Brusaw – 15:21
It was the following year, they came out with a solicitation open anybody for some kind of road that can actually pay for itself over its lifespan. And they came out with eight points of interest that they want us to attempt. And this was a phase one SBAR, which stands for small business innovative research grant.

Julie Brusaw – 15:40
They give you tasks to complete.

Julie Brusaw – 15:41
So there are eight tasks, they said ‘if you can complete four of them will consider you a success.’ And we completed all eight. The first round of funding was just, it was pretty funny, it was $100,000 for six months. And the only idea there was to go to professors at universities with lots of letters behind their name to say ‘yeah, this is a viable idea you should fund it.’ Well, we already had professors on board. So we didn’t need $100,000. So I said, How about we build a prototype instead use the money for that. And they said, ‘that’s great, do that.’

Julie Brusaw – 15:51
It was very crude, it was huge, because our original idea was, okay, we’ll make these panels as big as a lane in the road. And then it was a really good thing we did this really crude prototype because when you see a 12 by 12 foot panel, you kind of realize, no, that that was not a good idea. Imagine shipping them, imagine manufacturing them.

Scott Brusaw – 16:37
Not going to throw that in a Subaru. After we turned in our final report for the phase one, they offered us a phase two, which was $750,000 over a two year period, and they tasked us with building a parking lot. So what I really did was, I built a 36 foot section of highway.

Chris Straigis – 16:55
By now their idea was catching on and getting a lot of attention from all over the world. It wasn’t just the product, it was the mission, the bigness and boldness of it. Along the way, they found some new, more well known advocates talking about their humble little company, some of whom Julie didn’t even know.

Julie Brusaw – 17:15
Julian Lennon was the first celebrity to share an article about us. And that translated to, he got thousands and thousands of like, he wrote one word ‘clever,’ and shared an article. That probably amounted to $150,000 or so to our Indiegogo campaign, because that got the word out. And then not just George Takei, I mean, that was wonderful. And Nathan Fillion, the actor talked about us at Comic Con, and that videos on our on our website, such a cool video. When people asked him what he was into, and he said ‘Solar freakin Roadways,’ and he was just so sweet and so funny. And Mark Ruffalo and Susan Sarandon and so many people.

Scott Brusaw – 18:10
Myth Busters… they were a bunch of them that jumped on. And every time you know, that’s the way our society is for some reason, that when a celebrity says it or endorses it, you get a big jump.

Julie Brusaw – 18:20
It really helped us lot.

Scott Brusaw – 18:23
When I got the big bump from George Takei, Julie said ‘who the heck is George Takei?’ I said ‘you can’t be married to an electrical engineer and not know anything about Star Trek.’

Julie Brusaw – 18:36
Maybe cut that out, I don’t want to hurt Georges feelings. I honestly, I never watched those movies. So I didn’t know who he was, but I don’t want to hurt his feelings. We’ve had so many, and of course I know who they all are now!

Chris Straigis – 18:52
Solar Roadways is currently on version SR4 of their panel, the fourth generation. While it’s been a long road to this point, with each evolution, they’ve learned and adapted. They’ve come a long way from their first prototype.

Scott Brusaw – 19:08
Well, I’ll give you a little history. the SR1 was that big square thing from our phase one, and we knew we weren’t going to make it like that. So, SR2 is what you see in the video, the parking lot beside my red electrical *unclear*.

Julie Brusaw – 19:20
That’s when we came up with the hexagon.

Scott Brusaw – 19:21
Yeah, and SR3… see SR2 had the heating elements and had the LEDs and I could adjust a manually with a computer to make them brighter when the sun was out But that you can’t really do that. So SR3 was the first automated version, where we put the sensors in, where the microprocessor read the light sensor and adjusted the LED intensities accordingly, and also the temperature sensors and turn on the heaters when it’s cold enough. And so that was our first fully automated version. And so that was the first one they put in the public square in Sandpoint, Idaho, put 30 panels in. We were hoping that that would be our first commercial product, but we had mostly manufacturing problems because we were brand new to manufacturing, all the SR2 and SR1 are made by hand. So, SR3 was actually done by a machine. And it was my first experience with manufacturing, and nobody told me all your machines will break down like on a daily basis. So we had to get real creative on keeping them up and running. And there are a lot of lessons to be learned there. And so SR4 overcomes all the manufacturing problems of SR3. And we found a few other things that need to be adjusted. We changed the LEDs, we perfected the heating system, we added a bunch of protective circuitry. But that is the SR4 which we hope will now be the first commercial product.

Chris Straigis – 20:42
I’ve known a lot of entrepreneurs and small business owners and they all have a certain something, a drive, a connection to their vision, no matter what roadblocks may appear. There’s an old Zen proverb that I like – fall down seven times, get up eight. It’s a great model for everyday resilience, but it’s particularly relevant when you’re a new business, especially one with a new idea. There can be a lot of falling. I asked Scott and Julie to share a story about one of their bruises.

Scott Brusaw – 21:13
There was a grand opening in Sandpoint. They order 30 panels, and we were close, you know, we still had materials coming in, but they asked a lot of people, a lot of press from around the country, around the world, wanted to come and be here for the grand opening.

Julie Brusaw – 21:27
So the city people are saying, ‘we have to set a date.’ And we had so many supporters who were, because I do all of our social media, and people were saying ‘I’m going to fly to Sandpoint from’ you know, wherever they were around the country, ‘to be here for the grand opening.’ So, we felt pressured into, we had to set a date so that people could buy tickets and the press could be here.

Scott Brusaw – 21:53
Well, we thought we’ve picked a safe date. But then our supplier started having troubles, we weren’t getting the supplies we needed to build all the panels. And the date was sneaking up on us. And we have a lamination machine that’s capable of doing 30 panels at once. But we’ve never done more than two or three at a time, because it was mostly prototyping at the time. By the time we got everything we needed, it was like the night before the grand opening. So we just put them all in the oven and winged it. you know, and our lamination oven has two fans and three heaters. And unbeknownst to us, one of the heaters and one of the fans crapped out in the middle of the night. There’s no *inaudible* on the machine. And what was normally like a 12 hour program ran like 24 hours and we didn’t know it, it’s under heavy vacuum, and under that much time it started pulling the circuit boards apart. Now, we can’t see this, so when we finally pull them out, we start testing but only I believe eight of the 30 worked properly and maybe a few, like 12 more, the LEDs worked. And it was just a disaster, it was horrible.

Julie Brusaw – 22:49
That was one of my absolute worst moments because I do all of our social media and we had almost no sleep and I remember posting, I had to post on Facebook at five o’clock in the morning, and I said ‘bad news, everybody…’ And, you know, we didn’t know how people were going to react, how our support base was going to react, to this horrible news. And and we were so sleep deprived, you know, because we really hadn’t slept much in about three days.

Scott Brusaw – 23:17
And we had to go do a press conference that morning.

Julie Brusaw – 23:19
I waited for people to start responding and even though it was five o’clock in the morning, people started responding really fast. And I just sat there with tears running down my face as I read things like ‘Oh, don’t worry, that happens. You know, of course, of course you know, this is to be expected you’re in early production’ and ‘that’s what R & D is for and we’re behind you no worries.’ And people were so kind. Everybody was so kind to us there and they loved the panels anyway, even though eight of them worked and it was, it ended up being a great experience. Just seeing how wonderful our support base is, I always say we have the best supporters in the world.

Chris Straigis – 24:01
Solar Roadways actually caught my attention many years ago, it was early in their evolution. And it was a small special interest story, maybe one of the science channels. But their idea their vision seemed incredible to me, and had been in the back of my head ever since. But having the privilege to actually spend some time talking with them, I came to understand that their product was so much more than I even realized. They are talking about fundamentally transforming a massive part of the world’s infrastructure – paved surfaces like roads and parking lots. This is a seismic shift that could change so much. But I didn’t even realize how far could take us.

Scott Brusaw – 24:41
A few years back, I got a phone call from Kenneth Horowitz, who is the founder of Cellular One, which is one of the first cell phone companies. And he was currently on the board of a company that’s working on dynamic charging for EVs, charging them all that drive. And he was excited about Solar Roadways. So, we talked for about 20 minutes and I said, ‘let me ask you a question, in my talks, along the roadside, we have what we call a cable corridor. That’s where you put, it’s like a vault, and that’s where you put all your inverters, micro inverters, power supplies, whatever you need, so they’re protected and can’t be stolen for instance.’ I said, ‘what I’ve been telling my crowd is if we could take like a whip antenna, like every mile, we could probably eliminate all dead spots for cell phones on roads.’ And he just interrupts me and says ‘you wouldn’t even have to do that.’ So he says ‘all you’d have to do is run coax down your cable corridor and you you wouldn’t have any dead spots left.’ And that’s that’s what we’ve been looking for, that’s what you call a smart grid. Because we looked into this early on – like your wind farms, the biggest challenge they have is getting the power from a wind farm, or something in the middle of nowhere, back to a city. And the average cost is about a million dollars a mile to lay that line. Well, you’ve got dirt roads going up to every one of those windmills, if you make them out of solar road panels and put a cable quarter beside it, now you’ve got your backbone. I don’t care if it’s a hydroelectric dam or wind farm or solar farm or whatever. If we’re outfitting the roads, that becomes the backbone for all renewable energy.

Julie Brusaw – 26:12
So we become the smart grid and get all that energy in more easily.

Scott Brusaw – 26:18
When we got that first SBA er grant from the US DOT, one of those eight tasks on the wish list was ‘solve the stormwater problem.’ We went out and visited the Center for Urban Waters in Tacoma early on when we got that grant, and they were doing a study on the Puget Sound around Seattle. They found that over 50% of the heavy metals in the Sound was from storm water. So they asked us to do something about that, and we weren’t sure where to start. So we though, we have the cable corridor, if we put tanks, you know, every hundred yards or whatever, the cable quarter acts like a channel for water. Those tanks can store that water or we can, you know, filter it right onsite, or pump it through a series of check valves either direction down the road. So, we can move the storm water to an actual filtration facility or even beyond that to an aquifer, or you know…

Julie Brusaw – 27:12
To an area that’s having a drought, because how often do you turn on the news and you see some area of the country is flooded while another area of the country is in drought. So if we could move that water…

Scott Brusaw – 27:23
We had a hydrologist stop by at once and he said ‘if you could move water just 200 miles in this country, you would solve all the drought problems.’ The way we plan to do it is the first roads will be residential roads, you know, slow moving lightweight vehicles for the most part. And then move our way up, you know, to learn our lessons on residential roads and go to maybe county roads and then you know, the fast lane of the highway will be last. But I would guess in the next couple of years we’ll be doing our first for residential roads.

Julie Brusaw – 27:52
But it’s really important to get to those highways so that we can enable dynamic charging for EVs and help with autonomous vehicles because we haven’t even talked about that. But we have helps for both of those industries, which could be further help from the environment by eliminating the one problem that EVs have, which is range anxiety. Because if we can allow dynamic charging on solar roads, then you solve that problem. And now they’re charging with clean sunshine instead of fossil fuels. So that is going to be the final thing that’s going to just really be the icing on the cake for the environment. And we’ve got to get that infrastructure in to make it happen.

Scott Brusaw – 28:35
We’ve got over 28,000 square miles of paved impervious surfaces. So if we covered that with solar road panels, and we did these calculations back when the standard solar cells were 15% efficient, we’re now using 22.5% efficient solar cells

Julie Brusaw – 28:51
We have to recalculate that now.

Scott Brusaw – 28:52
Yeah, but even with 15% we calculated that if you covered all the surfaces with solar panels you produce three times more energy than we use as a nation. We just feel like we’re in a race against the planet.

Julie Brusaw – 29:08
Time as our enemy. We always say our enemy is time. Because we get every day we start out the day with this to-do list. And every day we have to go to bed without all of it crossed off because there’s all these additional things. And for me, I handle all of the emails that come, right now I have over 20,000 emails that I’m trying to work my way through. And most of them are customers from all over the world who are wanting our panels yesterday. So my job has become telling everybody ‘wait, not yet.’ And I just really can’t wait until I can say ‘yes, how many would you like and when would you like those!’

Chris Straigis – 30:04
Thanks for listening to Scrappy. You can go to scrappypod.com for show notes and links to Scott and Julie’s company – Solar Roadways. Keep an eye on these two, they are really going to change the world. If you know someone you think would make a good guest for our next season, go to scrappypod.com and send us a message, we’d love to hear from you. And don’t forget to like and subscribe, and give us a rating to let us know what you think of the pod!